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  #1  
Old 08-21-2012, 05:55 PM
bronco9588 bronco9588 is offline
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Default Several 6530 Questions

Hi All,

So I drove from MD to SC this past weekend. First time I have driven the 1973 Petty Blue Charger in over a year. Anyways, she is really choppy at around the 35 MPH region and not a lot of fun to drive it at that speed. Good above and below. Feels great at WOT. I believe there are a couple of problems. All the spark plug wires are bundled together with a tie wrap. Might be some cross firing going on. Figure I will put them on a loom. It did not act this way immediately after I changed the wires, nor when I purchased her. Curious of the Chrysler box has gone bad. Secondly, the guy before me just threw on an edelbroc carb and called it done. I know she is running pretty rich and the wallate is feeling it at 10 MPG. Noticeable backfires on coasting down. I have a Chrysler 400 and I would like to put an end to the issues. I figure a 6530 might be a little overkill with this engine, but I am swapping out to a 440 hopefully by november and already purchased this box for the engine swap. No reason I cant get an understanding of this ignition before switching the engine out. The distributor does not have a vac advance and obviously there is no pressure sensor. I figure the wiring should be pretty easy.

1) What is the difference between Pro Data+ and GraphView? Is one a GUI of the other?

2) So I guess I physically set max advance by phasing the locked out distributor, and then program a curve that tapers out the retard from idle to some rpm? Knowing very little about engine tunes and spark advance, what are good points to start for the tune?

3) Is timing an engine based on feel? I.E. driving around? How do I know if I need to go in any one direction at a particular RPM?

4) Does engine load have anything to do with timing? I am assuming that I can use a MAP sensor to adjust timing even if I do not have boost. Any trends that I should be aware of?

5) Can this system be turned into an EFI system as long as I have a good mass air flow element, a TPS, and injector drivers like megasquirt? Can Ignition and Injection be two independent systems?'

Thanks!
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Old 08-22-2012, 07:14 AM
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msdtech1955 msdtech1955 is offline
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Quote:
1) What is the difference between Pro Data+ and GraphView? Is one a GUI of the other?
pro data--is for the 6530-7530-7530t-7531

msd view---is for the powergrid--p/n7730-7761--7762.


Quote:
2) So I guess I physically set max advance by phasing the locked out distributor, and then program a curve that tapers out the retard from idle to some rpm?
yes your on the right path.
Quote:
Knowing very little about engine tunes and spark advance, what are good points to start for the tune?
using your stock oem advance curve-

Quote:
3) Is timing an engine based on feel? I.E. driving around? How do I know if I need to go in any one direction at a particular RPM?
all the above...tuning on a chassis dyno will only do so much ( idle and wide open) but for part throttle-cruze speeds...( seat of the pants )
i would highly suggest getting a exhaust gas temperature gauge
http://www.autometer.com/cat_gaugede...earch&gid=4054
to aid in tuning.


Quote:
4) Does engine load have anything to do with timing? I am assuming that I can use a MAP sensor to adjust timing even if I do not have boost. Any trends that I should be aware of?
yes,if you ran too much timing...it would "ping" or knock
but,if you ran a air fuel gauge..it would tell you what direction to go.



5) Can this system be turned into an EFI system as long as I have a good mass air flow element, a TPS, and injector drivers like megasquirt? Can Ignition and Injection be two independent systems?'

no sir, it is just an ignition ...and spend the money right the first time...get a big stuff ,accell ,or holley!!!!!!
6530advance 38for the web.JPG
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Old 08-22-2012, 09:45 AM
bronco9588 bronco9588 is offline
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3) What are the EGT telling you? I can see their value with a turbo application, but feel like this is a fuel metering problem and not a spark control problem?

4) Air fuel gauge... is that a wideband O2? I know these will be instrumental in tuning the carb and plan to get one.
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:13 AM
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msdtech1955 msdtech1955 is offline
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Benefits of air–fuel ratio metering


Reducing emissions: Keeping the air–fuel mixture near the stoichometric ratio of 14.7:1 (for gasoline engines) allows the catalytic converter to operate at maximum efficiency.

Fuel economy: An air–fuel mixture leaner than the stoichiometric ratio will result in near optimum fuel mileage, costing less per mile traveled and producing the least amount of CO2 emissions. However, from the factory, cars are designed to operate at the stoichiometric ratio (rather than as lean as possible while remaining driveable), to maximize the efficiency and life of the catalytic converter. While it may be possible to run smoothly at mixtures leaner than the stoichiometric ratio, manufacturers must focus on emissions and especially catalytic converter life (which must now be 100,000 miles (160,000 km) on new vehicles[citation needed]) as a higher priority due to U.S. EPA regulations.

Engine performance: Carefully mapping out air–fuel ratios throughout the range of rpm and manifold pressure will maximize power output in addition to reducing the risk of detonation.
Lean mixtures improve the fuel economy but also cause sharp rises in the amount of nitrogen oxides (NOX). If the mixture becomes too lean, the engine may fail to ignite, causing misfire and a large increase in unburned hydrocarbon (HC) emissions. Lean mixtures burn hotter and may cause rough idle, hard starting and stalling, and can even damage the catalytic converter, or burn valves in the engine. The risk of spark knock/engine knocking (detonation) is also increased when the engine is under load.

Mixtures that are richer than stoichiometric allow for greater peak engine power when using vapourized liquid fuels, due to the cooling effect of the evaporating fuel. This increases the intake oxygen density, allowing for more fuel to be combusted and more power developed. The ideal mixture in this type of operation depends on the individual engine. For example, engines with forced induction such as turbochargers and superchargers typically require a richer mixture under wide open throttle than naturally aspirated engines. Forced induction engines can be catastrophically damaged by burning too lean for too long. The leaner the air–fuel mixture, the higher the combustion temperature is inside the cylinder. Too high a temperature will destroy an engine – melting the pistons and valves. This can happen if you port the head and/or manifolds or increase boost without compensating by installing larger or more injectors, and/or increasing the fuel pressure to a sufficient level. Conversely, engine performance can be lessened by increasing fuelling without increasing air flow into the engine.

Cold engines also typically require more fuel and a richer mixture when first started (see: cold start injector), because fuel does not vaporize as well when cold and therefore requires more fuel to properly "saturate" the air. Rich mixtures also burn slower and decrease the risk of spark knock/engine knocking (detonation) when the engine is under load. However, rich mixtures sharply increase carbon monoxide (CO) emissions.
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:57 AM
bronco9588 bronco9588 is offline
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...so EGT coupled with a wideband and probably a MAP are useful for tuning. However, that still doesn't answer the question how EGTs relates to spark timing. If anything, EGTs would be useful for determining how much fuel goes into the cylinder. Does spark timing have an effect on EGTs or the lambda sensor?

On an aside, but worthwhile mentioning here: Running lean is actually a "cooler" combustion as peak temperatures are less. The problem is that the burn duration increases beyond exhaust valve open. Instead of the energy being converted into P*dV work, it is converted to thermal energy and exposes the piston and valve stem to higher temperatures for a relatively longer period of time than the peak combustion temperature. The weak area particularly is the valve stem that has a high surface area to material specific heat and is a high point of stress with the valve springs.

I have a pretty good grasp on air fuel mixtures, but am missing the whole spark timing and tuning concept with lambda and EGTs.
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:09 PM
Gaz64 Gaz64 is offline
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Even if the mixture was correct for all speed and load conditions, and the ignition timing is overadvanced, the engine could be experiencing spark knock (ping) and EGTs go up.
If the timing is underadvanced for the engine speed/load, combustion may still be occurring during the exhaust stroke and EGTs go up.

A/F ratios as read by a Lambda sensor would be affected due to the amount of uncomsumed oxygen in the exhaust.

The combustion process for all speed/load conditions is a complex array of A/F mixtures versus optimum ignition timing, to produce the maximum efficiency from the engine and to keep EGTs down.
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Last edited by Gaz64; 08-23-2012 at 12:31 AM.
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Old 08-22-2012, 05:45 PM
bronco9588 bronco9588 is offline
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looks like we have a robo... thanks for the info. I will include these instruments when I redo the dash.
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